Undefeated: How to Get Back Up When Life Knocks You Down

What does it truly mean to be undefeated? 

It doesn’t mean that life has been easy, that you have never failed, or that you have never been knocked down. It means choosing to get back up every time life challenges you. 

In this episode of Diversity Conversations, Eric Ellis shares deeply personal stories of rejection, disappointment, perseverance, faith, and transformation. From being overlooked and cut from teams to navigating major changes in his personal life and career, Eric reveals how setbacks can build resilience, strengthen character, and sometimes become answers in disguise. 

Eric also explores how leaders can respond to workplace inequity and favoritism with fairness, consistency, and evidence-based decisions—introducing a practical framework designed to help create more equitable workplaces for everyone. 

If you are facing an invisible battle, feeling discouraged, or wondering whether you have the strength to continue, this conversation is a reminder: your story is not over. 

Being undefeated isn’t a record. It’s a decision. 

undefeated, resilience, overcoming adversity, personal growth, faith, perseverance, leadership, inclusive leadership, workplace fairness, favoritism in the workplace, equity, character development, purpose, motivation, Eric Ellis, Diversity Conversations 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to Diversity Conversations, where we engage in thought-provoking dialogue to identify leadership solutions to today's most challenging conflicts. Stream live each week, Saturday, 9.30 a.m. to 11 a.m., hosted by Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Strategists and CEOs, Eric Ellis and Tommy Lewis. Join us and add your voice to this engaging diversity conversation.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Good morning, Greater Cincinnati, Northern Kentucky, the United States, and the world. My name is Eric Ellison. I'm the president and CEO of Integrity Development Corporation. And I'm usually joined by my uh brother and friend Tommy Lewis. He's still out on assignment. I think he'll join us again next week. And we are certainly looking forward to having Tommy come back. Man, I miss my brother when he's not here. But uh he uh takes uh a little time off in the summer. Uh got so many things going on with life and business. You know, you gotta find some time to sort of do a recharge, if you will. And so we know that uh Tommy's doing a recharge, and we're looking forward to having him back next week. I had a great week, community. I am so glad that you are here with me today uh to help me with this show. I certainly uh look forward to your comments for you for you weighing in on the topic that I have today. And the topic that I've chosen is undefeated. Uh today uh we're gonna be talking about undefeated, and that's not being undefeated because uh life has been easy, or you've never failed, or you've never been knocked down. I'm saying to you today, community, that we are undefeated because every single time that we get knocked down, we get back up. And so I've been thinking about you a lot, and I want to try to bring things to you that I think will add value. Over the course of life, I've experienced myself setbacks, uh, disappointments, failures, rejection, and moments when I it would have been easier to quit. Today I want to share some stories around things that have happened to me and how I've responded to them because I think that this may be one of my uh greatest strengths in life and greatest assets in life is my ability to keep getting back up. And I'd like to start by maybe even sharing a couple of scriptures with you because I don't get up under my own strength. Uh, I get up in part because I have uh a Father in heaven, a God that I believe in, that is always there to help as well. Uh, there's one scripture that should be common to some of you if you're people of faith, and that is Isaiah 54, 17. No weapon formed against you shall prosper. And so that's one of the things that I want to say to you is that whatever battles you might be facing, uh, that if you are a believer, then you should embrace this notion that no weapon formed against me can prosper. Uh, there's a second uh passage that's uh found in 2 Corinthians 12 and 9. Uh, this is one of my favorite scriptures, and it talks about in my weakness, God's strength is made perfect. I mean, just think about that for a minute. That it's when I'm weak that God is strongest. I've talked to a couple of people, and I have found them, uh, friends of mine, uh just checking in on them. I have found them in places of battle, quiet battle where they're they're just battling life and all the economic challenges and social pressures and emotional family pressures. And uh the question I asked them was uh, what is your relationship like with God? Because oftentimes, community, one of the things that we do, man, is we try to we try to do God's job, you know, and we try to carry all the weight that is coming at us in life. I'll tell you, I describe it sometimes as the Goliaths in our lives. And one of the things that you won't find me doing is literally looking into the eyes of all the Goliaths in my life and making them bigger. Sometimes when we stare at them, we just actually kind of get, we empower them, we make them bigger in our lives in ways that they just are towering over us. Sometimes you have to just ignore Goliath. Uh, you it's not that you don't recognize that they exist, that challenges exist, but you don't do God's job. And you recognize that in your weakness, that's when God is on call and doing his work. And then uh one of my mother's favorite scriptures was the 23rd Psalm. My mother uh had me read this to her over and over and over in the hospital when my father had uh experienced and and ultimately died of a massive heart attack. The 23rd Psalm says, Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil. And so that's the other thing that I just want to leave with you that wherever you are, whatever you're going through, understand that you don't have to fear that uh because God is with us. And so to me, undefeated, it isn't a record, it's a decision. It's a pack you make with yourself that says, no matter what happens to me, no matter how many setbacks I experience, uh, no matter how many times life knocks me down, I will get back up. And so that's what I want to say to you right now. I'm going through challenges right now in my life, and I've chosen to just keep getting up off the canvas again and again and again. Uh being undefeated doesn't mean that you'll never cry. It doesn't mean that you'll never question yourself, it doesn't mean that you'll never lose. It means you refuse to surrender your future to the challenges that you're facing today. And so my hope is that today's conversation reminds someone who feels exhausted, discouraged, or ready to give up that your story is not over. That's what I want to say to you, community. And I want some of you to weigh right in and talk about uh the ways in which you're getting back up right now. Because as a nation, in many ways, um the enemy is trying to knock us down in terms of the economic pressures that we face, the political pressures that we face, the division that we're experiencing right now. There are a lot of things that are coming after us, and I would say that it's so important for you to find ways to get back up. Many of you are facing invisible battles, uh, sometimes battles around discrimination, loss, disability, poverty, grief, mental health struggles. Right now, there are people that are going through uh mental health struggles and struggles with their family and their loved ones, rejection, homelessness, even. And uh, those are real challenges that we face, but we can still choose to get back up and to experience this notion of being undefeated, because that is a way of thinking that says that I might be discouraged, but I'm not uh defeated. Uh, I'm not taken over. This is not the last chapter, this is not the last round that I'm going to experience. And uh in life, we may experience uh, you know, things that feel totally unfair sometimes. Uh, you didn't make the team uh that you were going after, you didn't get that promotion. Uh, you've gone through a difficult divorce. Uh, you've been scammed on the internet. Uh, someone you loved died. All of those are tragic difficulties that slow us down. They hurt us, they get our attention, but they don't have to defeat us. And so I want to share some stories around things that I've uh experienced across my life uh that uh, you know, uh many of you have had you have your own story as well. Uh and so the first one uh I remember, you know, I grew up with uh, you know, uh a lot of interest in sports. And uh my father was big on school, but he was also big on sports. And so I remember, you know, just I mean, when we were growing up, my father would uh in Dayton, Ohio, he would line up the whole street out there and just do track uh races in the hood. Daron, I'm so glad you're here, Reginald Park. Man, I'm so glad y'all are here. Reggie, do you know that all these cues have descended upon our city, man? Are you here? Come on, brother, where are you at? Uh you know, I love you, Paul. I appreciate you showing up today. Uh I wanna I want to bring up Paul's uh guiding principle there, and I'll come back to that. Uh, but then, you know, my father was really big on sports, and so we did that all of our lives as we just ran and he would get the whole community out. And I remember back then when you took off your shoes, you was about to win, you know. And so, man, I was uh, you know, always loved sports. And I remember uh coming to Cincinnati, and my father had uh started his own business, and so he put all five of us kids in private school. And so we were over there at the private school, and I was playing on the football team. And uh, I'll never forget that I love playing football. And so uh, you know, they had uh, you know, I was a uh a running back, and then we had another running back that was really, really good. And so, you know, uh over the course of the year, you know, I ran seven touchdowns that year, and he ran maybe nine uh or 10. And so we were going to the banquet, and man, I'm at the banquet, and I'm thinking, I know they got a couple of trophies that they're giving out. They're giving out one for the most valuable running back. And I'm thinking, maybe I'll get that if he gets the one for the most valuable player. And if they gave him both the most valuable player and the most valuable running back, I would understand that because this kid was really, he was good. But I was thinking, if they don't give both of the trophies to the same guy, maybe I'll get that one. And so, man, I was sitting there and they're starting to describe who's gonna be the winner of the most valuable running back. And man, I I listened and it and it sounded like it wasn't gonna be him, like it might even be me. So when they got uh to the point where they said, and the winner is, and they announced it, I was literally like this, y'all. I was coming up out of my seat, and then they named somebody else. They named another kid who had run one touchdown uh from two yards out, and they gave him the trophy for the most valuable running back, and so I certainly felt as as though that was unfair. I was discouraged, I got a participation ribbon, and my father took us out of school because he too felt as though that was unfair. It was I but you know what? There's still even empathy. There was empathy in me even in that situation because the kid looked at me and all the color had left his face, and he said, Eric, I'm so sorry, man. I I didn't deserve this. This is your trophy. And I felt bad for him. But you see, um one of the things that we often try to do is we try to rescue our children from difficult situations and experiencing unfairness. But I think that unfairness builds character, it builds resilience. And so for me, that day, I got a chance to get my character built and to build some resiliency and to give me a story for the rest of my life that that life is not always going to be fair. Let's bring up uh uh Paul's comment, Paul Sterkey's comment. I appreciate you all weighing in. I love to hear from you. One of my guiding principles, a quote that the late great Nelson Mandela said uh that uh I do not lose. I either win or I learn. Keep moving forward, let lessons be your strength. I love that. And that's part of what I'm bringing to you today, community, is this notion of there's a lot going on right now in life. And I know last week we had a special guest that was just powerful. Uh, my sister, Giselle Marcus. She joined us and we talked about don't let negativity steal your hope and joy. And so, in many ways, I'm still in that theme because there's so many clouds right now outside of my uh studio, it's a thunderstorm going on. Now, I'm supposed to be in a golf tournament today and tomorrow. And I was excited. I've been working for this, you know, but I'm man, I'm hearing thunder and stuff like that out there. But it doesn't really matter what's happening outside of this studio. And here is sunshine and this notion that we are undefeated. Uh, bring up uh Duran's comment. I love that, Duran. Uh Duran, uh, we had Duran on as one of our most powerful uh guests. He just talked about his entire life story. I was so glad that I had a chance to have my friend uh and uh childhood friend and hero, hall of fame athlete in Cincinnati, on Diversity Conversations. And he talked about Vitaligo and his experiences with that and the making, the making of your character, even as an adult, an older person. Uh, he shared a story about uh, you know, being at Sports Plus with his daughter, and uh she was there playing basketball, and this young kid came up to him and just said, You are the ugliest person I've ever seen, you know. You look like a monster. And Duran said that that uh kid's, I mean, a 10-year-old kid's comment just cut all the way through him. And he said he went home and he was still in tears when he shared the story with his wife. And his wife said to him that if that kid knew you, if that kid really knew you, he wouldn't say that. And for me, I know that that was uh comment from his wife from heaven to encourage him, but it cut all the way through my heart as well because I said the same thing. If you really knew DeRon Hunter, he would have never said that. And uh what we see is that just the way the world is going on right now, people feel as though it's just fine uh to just say crazy things to other people. If they're on the other side, if they are my political enemy, then I could just almost say anything. And I'd say to you, community, that don't ever allow the difficulties and challenges in life to change your character and who you are. Uh, Daron said the cream will always rise to the top. And uh I agree with that, even if it takes a while. Because sometimes the cream might not rise automatically to the top. I I have baked, I love baking lemon meringue pie. I mean, that's one of my uh favorite uh pies to make, lemon meringue. And I have made a couple of pies where um I put the sugar in the meringue too quick. And then when I put it in the oven, it didn't rise. And so, well, I had to either eat that no-rising uh lemon meringue pie or I had to make some more meringue. Uh but you know, it wasn't cream, it was sugar. And the sugar that was put in too early healed the ability of the meringue to rise. Let's see, when we really know that everything happens in our life uh favor, we can remain in uh a positive state. I love that, Lydia. Thank you for that. Uh, and and and and that's the thing that you have to understand that there's a power that's working on your behalf. And so let me share another story. I I remember, you know, and and these are stories in my life around uh sports, uh, but I'll I'll get into some other things as well. And there's some tools that I want to share with you all before we wrap up. Uh I loved sports. Uh, I remember uh playing basketball every single day. I mean, I love basketball so much, but literally in the sixth grade, sixth grade, I couldn't hit a layup, Duran. I couldn't hit a layup consistently. Uh when I got to high school at uh Wenton Woods Forest Park High School, I was uh as a freshman, I was 5'4 ⁇ 99 pounds. And so I was a bench warmer there. Uh then by the time I got to be a sophomore, I got a little taller, but I was sitting in the bench again. Uh but by the time I was a junior, I was a pretty good basketball player. And uh we had a coach, uh, you know, uh, you know, we had a coach, Earl Edmonds, you may remember that name. And Earl Edmonds had cut my brother from the varsity basketball team, but kept me. And so I felt bad for my brother, but I was on the team. And still, I didn't play a whole lot because, you know, I had never really played a lot of organized basketball. I played a lot in, you know, in the streets. And uh, so I didn't, you know, there's a difference between playing an organized game and playing, you know, uh in the park. And so I was too fast back then and I had too much stuff in my game. I would throw the balls behind my back, and back then it was like, hey, put on that fancy danning, you know, and so man, you know, uh, I just sit over there on the bench. But if I got in in the last two minutes, man, I'm throwing the balls through my legs, throwing it behind my back, all that kind of stuff, you know. And then, well, that's why you ain't playing. And so uh then I came back as a senior and we got a new coach. And uh, as a senior, I was really tough because I had played a lot of basketball now. So I'm uh I'm ready to do my thing, you know. But we got a new coach in, and uh, to my surprise, I got cut. I got cut from the basketball team as a sink. So that is an opportunity for you to feel defeated. The longest walk I ever had home was that walk because I knew I was gonna have to tell my father that I was no longer a basketball player. And uh, you know, he would love to come to games on Tuesday. I would just look up there in the stands, and my father would just walk in uh the gym, and oftentimes he wouldn't sit down anywhere, he'd just stand up there so you know he could see me, I could see him. And no matter whether I played or not, I knew my father was there and I had backup. And so now I'm walking home from Forest Park High School, and I've got to tell my father that I'm no longer on the team. And my father said something to me that I'll never forget. He said, Eric, he said, look, he said, nobody tells you when it's over but you. He said, Oscar Robertson slept with the basketball. Okay, lesson learned. So I picked up myself and I uh I went on down to the neighborhood rec league, the ABA Basketball League, and uh I started working on my game. Now, when I went to the ABA, that's where all the guys didn't even play school ball. They went to ABA and played there, and you know, it you kind of looked down on it a little bit because it wasn't a school team, but I was glad to, you know, be able to go somewhere. And I went down there and as a former uh school basketball player, I was kind of, you know, desired. And so they had a draft and everything, you know, and uh and I got drafted on a team, and I did not realize here's what I want to say to you, community that sometimes the things that you look at as defeats may be your answer in disguise. I didn't know that that was going to be one of the greatest uh things that had ever happened to me because now at the ABA League, I'm starting on a team. I'm the captain, and literally I'm on the floor all the time. And so I'm able to learn how to lead and how to play uh basketball in an organized system. The other thing was I was senior class president. Hmm. See, y'all had to know how my brain works. I'm always like, this ain't over yet. Now, what I did is I put together a regimen for myself because whenever I get rejected, I don't just totally blame that on somebody else. I say, what can I do to make myself better? So I put together a regimen. Every single day, I was dribbling 2,000 times in the basement in the dark with both hands. I was shooting 2,000 jump shots from everybody. We had a little basketball goal over the uh garage. But then I would walk uh to the high school in the summertime. I remember I would walk to the high school and I would literally play ball from 6 a.m. to 11 p.m. I remember watching them build uh that blacktop uh basketball courts there at Forrest Park and putting up the lights. I was there when they was building it. And so I'd be up there dreaming about things. I remember trying to teach myself how to do a 360 shot. I can remember it right now as though it was yesterday. I'm left-handed. So I would go and I'd plant my right hand foot and then I would try to jump up and see if I could get all the way around and shoot a shot. Just craziness like that. And I would see an imaginary crowd there cheering for me. And uh I would uh I'm left-handed. So I would put the ball when I walked from my house to the high school, I would put the ball in my right hand and I would just throw it back behind my back and through my legs all the way there. Whenever I had a chance to put the basketball in my right hand, I would do that because I was preparing myself to be a weapon. And uh this year, that was my senior year, and I had an honor that I uh was bestowed upon me. I was elected the first black senior class president. So I was thrilled about that. But then I did something that uh, man, I didn't forget. I put on a fundraiser uh uh game against the all-stars from the ABA league and the school team. And for years there was this running debate over who had the best basketball players, the school team or the ABA league. And so now here I am. I'm putting on as a senior class fundraiser a benefit game between the ABA All-Stars and the school team. Now, the school administrators, because they're usually out of step a little bit, they didn't really know what I was doing. Uh, you know, I got all my permits and everything a couple months in advance. When it came down to two weeks left in the uh before the game, there was a huge buzz around the whole community. And so one of the administrators that came to me and tried to intervene, like Erica, we're gonna need you to uh to call off that game. I said, Well, no, that's uh it's an official senior class fundraiser. Now, if you all just want to pay that bill, then uh you're no problem. So they left me alone and we had the game. And literally, when we played them, David Gardner, we had a bunch of people, Magic, we had a bunch of people on our team that could ball. We played them first half. We rocking and rolling. We went in halftime ahead. Now we ended up losing the game, but I scored 35 points. And I made my point that I was good enough to have been on the team. But I'll tell you something else, uh, community, that we never know why things happen in our lives. I think that that may have been a part of a God design thing. In other words, I needed to get better. I was able to go to a place where I could start and be on the floor all the time. And uh, and as I looked at it 30 years later, when I wrote my book, I said I understood, you know, some things you only see them more clearly in hindsight. I understood 30 years later how if I were a new coach coming into a situation, I might cut the senior and hold on to a sophomore or somebody that I have for a couple of years. And so part of life's uh maturity means that you can't look at every situation as literally being a negative toward you. Sometimes it's a part of a bigger plan. Uh, sometimes people do things for other reasons, and those reasons may even make sense. And so uh so uh I, because of the work that I did, I ended up being able to walk on at a college basketball team at Anderson College, where my father and my mother went and they met. And so I played there for a couple of years. Then I transferred to Wright State where my father was. And uh my father was an assistant dean. And literally, when I transferred to Wright State, my father finally transitioned from being my parent boss to really being my friend. So my dad and I, we would go to lunch every day, and he thought I was a great basketball player himself, you know, because I got to the place where I could beat him, you know, and I would just take it easy on him, you know. I acted like I couldn't, but I could blow by him every time. Uh and that's what we would talk about. Every single day we go to lunch, and we talk about me trying out for the basketball team at Wright State. And uh, and my mom thought we were crazy. She was like, what are y'all talking about? He hadn't played anywhere. How's he gonna make that team? And literally that summer, I was there for a year. I had to sit out uh formally a year before I could even try out for the team. And so uh, and so uh that summer, uh, I came home one day and my dad was uh bent over on the bottom of my bed. And uh and he said, Son, uh I think I've had a heart attack. He went to the hospital uh the day before uh they sent him home. He told me he had a heart attack. They sent him home and said, No, you just weren't taking your high blood pressure medicine. And then the next day he had the same feeling. And so this time he said he didn't believe that he was coming back. So before he uh left in the ambulance, he gave me two things. Okay, he gave me his wallet and he gave me his watch. I think that he gave me his wallet as uh it was a symbol of his ability to make a living for my family. And so that's what he wanted to give me. Son, always be willing to uh be responsible and to make a uh uh an honorable living for your family. And then the second thing he gave me was my was his watch, his bullet gold watch. And uh and then he went to the hospital. My mom and I went there and uh and he he died. And so that was devastating. There are, you know, five of us, and uh, so my dad died of a massive heart attack, and my mom had a nervous breakdown. So literally, there were five of us kids that were just scrambling to get back to our feet. Uh, we were just really, I mean, just set free with no real guidance. Uh, I remember Miss Gowens, uh, you know, a big family in Forrest Park that had moved in, uh, you know, and into our community. They were just like my family, you know. I had dated one of her daughters. Yeah, I played ball with all her boys, you know, I was over at her house all the time. She came over and really rescued our family and just cleaned up everything and fed us and prayed with us and just looked out for us. And uh, and so that was a tragic period in my life. It was an opportunity to literally be defeated. And uh, and so I didn't know what I was gonna do. I didn't know how I'd be able to get back to right state, you know. Uh, and uh I decided that uh the only thing that took me back to right state was the conversations my father and I had about me trying out for that team. And so when I got there, uh I tried out for the right state uh basketball team. There were five other guys that tried out. And the coach said to us, he said, look, he said, uh only one of you were gonna select. He says, and we're gonna post that on the wall this afternoon so you can just come back over and it'll be posted. So uh man, I got up that uh next day. Man, I was nervous and I was scared to even go over there because I didn't want to see my name not be on the wall. And uh so I walked over there uh to the gym, the PE building, and there was no list up. And so I was like, oh man, maybe they already selected the person they're gone. And so I was about to walk away, and one of the assistant coaches came out. Hey, Eric, how you doing? Oh, uh good coach. Uh uh, how are you, sir? And I was trying not to be super nervous, but that was and he started rambling about some just some kind of conversation about stuff, and I'm like, man, what are you talking about? What happened? Who made it? You know, that's what I'm sitting here thinking, and uh, and and literally he didn't said anything, and so I was like, uh, okay, Kote, good to see you. And I was about to turn away. He said, Oh, uh, you can get your gear downstairs in the cage. I said, Huh? I said, I made the basketball team. He said, Yeah, I said, What? Man, I ran down there and got my gear. I mean, can you imagine that? That literally I went down there and got all my stuff with Rice State University on it and got my new converse, gym shoes, leather gym shoes. And man, I could have done backflips all across the campus. Literally, uh, I felt as though when my father died, he went up to heaven and he asked God for a favor. He said, Look, God, I'm I'm gonna need a couple favors. First of all, I want you to help my boy to make that team because he's gonna need something to bridge the gap in his life. And then, secondly, it was not too much to ask God, maybe you can help him win the national championship. So that's what happened my first year on Wright State's team, is we kept winning and winning and winning until we finally were the number one Division II uh NCAA basketball team in the country. We won the national championship. And I knew that I had two jobs on that team. Number one, I was gonna be, I was probably the last guy on the team. That's what the walk-ons usually are. Uh, so I was gonna be the biggest cheerleader for the rest of my team. And I was gonna give the guy in front of me hell and practice every day. And so that's what I did. And most often when I was in the midst of cheering for the team, the coach said, Ellis, get in the game, huh? You know, I wasn't used to that. You know, somebody that wasn't afraid of my game. And uh I became a fan favorite, and the behind-the-back passes were no problem. And then uh my senior year, I came back and I started in half the game. So the most I ever played in my entire career was my last year of college basketball. And so uh you're not defeated. Some of the things that you're looking for may be delayed, but they're not eliminated. Uh, and so uh that is so true, my friend. I appreciate that, Deron. And so, you know, as I have experienced these losses in my life, I found ways to keep getting back up. And I'm saying to you right now, no matter what happens to you, if it feels unfair, that that you there's there's often a silver lining in it. Sometimes you have to also take a real clear look to make sure that what you believe is unfair, it may or may not be. You know, sometimes there's things that you need to develop and strengthen and build on. And I I use that defeat uh, you know, from high school as as inspiration for improving my skill set. So it made it more difficult for somebody to uh ignore my my talent and my ability. Uh sometimes when you are your kids are in sports and uh, you know, uh, you know, you you're you're playing for a coach that you might feel is unfair. I remember I was coaching my kids in uh had them in uh Bethany school, and you know, they they didn't have real uh formal coaches, so a lot of times the parents coached. So here I am. I started off coaching my daughter's team, and you know, they went to the tournament for the first time in school history, and so you know, it was phenomenal. And my daughter, you know, she was amazing. You she was a tough girl, man. She was out there balling, you know. And then when my boys came along, I coached them as well. And uh so I coached my son's uh, my older son's team. And I'll never forget a parent came to me before the game and said, uh, coach, I'm gonna talk to you. I don't think you've been fair to my son. I said, okay. I said, I'll tell you what, I'm gonna start him today. Let's talk after the game. It's it's eighth grade. I don't care, you know. So I start the kid. And now, when a parent tells you that you're unfair, what I have found is that too often coaches just get mad and they start talking about you don't know, and I'm their coach. And uh I don't I don't talk to parents. I've even heard that. I don't talk to parents about the things uh that uh relate to their kid. You know, uh, you want to uh schedule a meeting to talk about something else? I am open to that. No, no, no, no. Man said uh I'm being unfair to his kid. So I said, okay, hey, I'm gonna start him today. Let's talk. Now, when I started him, I have now a second responsibility, and that's to that kid. And so I can't put the kid out there and hope that he fails. I put the kid on the floor, started him, and then I'm cheering for him. Come on, little Johnny, you can do it, baby, you can do it. And I'm pulling for him and screaming for him, you know, leaving him out there. But the kid only could dribble with one hand. And so they would trap him, take the ball, and then they'd be running down the other way. And so after about six or seven minutes of that, in the stands, I see a white handkerchief just start being waved. His father literally put up a white handkerchief, like, okay, I get it. And so I pulled little, I said, I rescued little Johnny from all the turnovers. And then after the game, I told his father, his father was discouraged and said, maybe I should take him off the team. I said, No, no, no, don't do that. I said, that's where he is today. It's my job to get him to somewhere else, but you got to trust me. So, see, sometimes uh to build trust, you've got to give some. You've got to allow parents to see for themselves because every now I knew that as a parent coach, that it may be hard for me to actually be fair. So, so so let the record show that it's a very difficult thing to be a fair parent coach. And I started the AAU basketball team. Because of that, because of the difficulty of being fair to everybody, I only took 10 kids because that's all I can play. And here's what I would do: I would start five the first quarter, then start a second, that second five the second quarter, then flip it again, and then whoever was playing the best within the game. That way I was trying to guard against my own natural bias as a parent. And so uh so I'm saying to you that whatever you go through, find the silver lining and then see, you know, if you're if you're in a good situation where somebody really cares about you and your kid, then you you can stay there. And that there may be some benefits in that. Um also I had a situation where, and just talking about fairness and an opportunity to keep developing and growing and understanding what it means to be undefeated. Uh, my daughter played for uh uh basketball team. Uh, she was a very good athlete. I coached her last game in the eighth grade. And then when she went to high school, uh, she tore her ACL at uh St. Ursula and uh and uh that put her out for the season. And then we transferred her to uh uh Lakota West and she uh tried out for the team and made it, and then she tore her ACL again. And literally, that was my daughter's experience in high school, was literally constantly, one time after another. I think she tore her ACL uh four times, three times, uh before she graduated from high school. And so she finally told me as a junior, she said, Dad, she said, uh, I think I'm done with basketball. And so she had determined that the ACLs had won. That uh there was nothing else that she could do. And so she uh just said, Dad, I think I'm done with uh basketball. I said, baby, you put up a good fight. Um, I understand that, and I support you. And so between her junior and senior years, she just set out the whole summer. Now, you you know, if you're trying to play as a senior, you can't miss uh summer AAU, you know. And so my daughter comes to me like she missed the whole summer. She comes to me, her knee it healed a bit. She comes to me and said, Do you think I can travel for the team? I'm like, What? Can you travel for the team? And I've already conceded this, you know, that hey, let's move on to other things. You about to graduate and go into college. And uh literally I said, Well, baby, uh, you know, let me talk to the coach. Now, I already knew that this was an elite basketball team uh with an elite coach, and he was not gonna have a whole lot of openness to somebody that didn't play all summer who's now trying to try out. So I called him up. I said, Fish man, you know, uh Jillian asked me, you know, if it's okay for her to try out for the team. Now I know how you all did. He said, Eric, he said, he said, that's not your decision nor mine. You have her come try out. And so uh I sent her to the tryout. And uh, you know, she uh she did okay, uh, but she wasn't her full self anymore. Because after you've uh torn your ACL three times, you now inside your brain, the enemy is working to defeat you because what she knew is that every time I tried to run my fastest, I would tear my ACL. So she was just a step slow. But uh, because the coach was really honoring the body of work that Gillian had done, he uh took her on the team. And so for me getting cut uh as a senior, my daughter makes a team as a senior that she probably didn't fully earn, at least in terms of her basketball ability at that point in time. And uh so uh she uh sitting most games on the bench, cheering for the team, and uh, and I would go to every practice, and I remember on Sunday nights, I would just go over there and help out where I could. And she would come up last in every race that they won, that they ran. And so I would look at her and I'd see that discouragement on her face because she was a fast basketball player. And now to be coming up last all the time was rather discouraging. But I remember being in the gym on one particular evening, and uh they were calling just an ordinary sprint drill, and so everybody lined up on the on the baseline, and I was preparing for her to come in last again, but I looked in her face and in her eyes, and I saw something different. I could see that for the first time in a long time she had decided that I'm tired of being last. He blew the whistle out of the gate. And I saw her beat everybody in that ordinary sprint drill that nobody likes to do, and I could not believe that I saw my baby girl get back up on that horse and say, I'm no longer defeated. I had to leave the jail. I went into the hallway and it didn't matter to me if she ever played again or anything. I saw her get back up and say, I can do something that I thought I couldn't do. Now, she still sat around, but she now is a faster player. And on senior night, you know, it's it's tradition to start uh all the seniors. And so she started. Man, I'm there, I'm excited. I'm like, okay, maybe she she can prove herself, da-da-da. You know, she's out there on the floor looking like her old self. I'll never forget. She came down the court one time, she faked the girl to the left, open uh up and over, and then spun it into the basket for a score.

unknown 43:41

I'm like, look at that.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

Did everybody see that? That's my baby, you know, and I'm watching. And then she pretty much set for the balance of the year. Now you know that uh for me and my family, uh, you know, we had experienced so much unfairness that it became Tradition that she and my parents would talk to coaches, you know, uh say, hey, what's going on with my kid? But I chose not to do that. Um I uh uh, you know, I realized that without the coach, she wouldn't be on the team. And so I've got nothing to say. And she, you know what she said to me? She said, Dad, she said, I'm so glad that I came back. You know, I'm glad to be able to finish out what I started. And so uh community, that's what I want you to take away is that sometimes everything might not work out the way that you want it. Uh, sometimes, uh, you know, uh even when you've prepared yourself, things might not always go your way. Uh, but there's still lessons to be learned and there's honor to be had because, see, there's sometimes something bigger than playing time that's on the line, and that's character building. And so the coach, uh, he was like, I loved him. He's like a brother to me. Uh, he was like uh a genius in the X's and O's, but a nightmare with the people. And so he had never won a state title. And uh, and so he asked me to join his coaching staff to coach him. I said, No, no, man, I ain't gonna join your coaching staff. Coaches are arrogant, they don't want to listen. I ain't interested. He said, No, no, Eric, Eric, I need you. I'm gonna listen. And so I said, Okay, I'm gonna try it for a year. And so I came to his practice and I didn't realize that nobody talked in his practices. And so I'm literally, I said something. Man, the whole place got silent. Everybody's looking at me like, oh, you said something. And I was like, uh, okay, fish, can I talk? Yeah, go ahead, go ahead. You know, these geniuses, you know, they don't want you messing up the way they say stuff. And he slowly started um appreciating and and valuing my voice, even if I didn't say it in exactly the way that he would. And so I told him, I said, Coach, uh, I'm gonna, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna I'm gonna interview every girl. And uh what I did was I uh uh interviewed every girl on the team and I asked him uh four questions. I said, What are the top four behaviors that we as coaches display that build your confidence and make you better? What are the top four behaviors that we display that bring down your confidence and make you worse? Uh and does anybody like uh being yelled at? And so I put together, no kids said they like being yelled at, so I eliminated it. I said, look, fish, no coach can yell at any girl. And I put a scaling report together on every girl and I said, every coach has got to coach every girl in the way that that girl says works best for them. And literally he accepted that. And so every coach coached the kids in the ways that those kids say was most productive. And uh so we started winning. Uh I uh opened up the voices of the kids, of the players, and they were able to speak back and they were able to say, I don't understand this coach without judgment. And uh I told him, I remember I was sitting, I was sitting on the bench. This is the first time I got a chance to be with a client. I'm sitting on the bench and I'm giving coaching during the game. So I would get up, I'd not say anything out loud, I'd get up and get his ear and I'd say, Look, uh, fish, great job, keep it up. Then I sit down. Then I'd get up and say, Fish, you're scaring the girls, bring it down. And then he would. And literally, I told him one time, I said, Fish, I said, tell Nia to blow by that girl. He said, huh? I said, tell Nia to blow by the defender. He said, Nia, blow by that girl. Nia said, boom. He said, What was that? I said, that's what it looks like when a coach instils confidence in the player. Let them know that you believe in them. There's so much more they could do. Long story short, in three years, we ended up winning the state. And uh I just love that. And he transformed himself from the coach that could never win the state to a winner. And I quit. I was done. There is something else that I want to share with you that oftentimes right now, as we look at what's happening in this country, there are a lot of people that are discouraged because of DEI has been eliminated. In many ways, that's the business that uh my father, that's the industry that my father created. That's the I've done a lot of that work over the last three decades. And then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, uh division in our country, uh political uh uh battling has eliminated one of the engines to fairness and equity in the workplace, in our schools, in our country. And there are many people that do the work that I do that were simply discouraged and defeated. Some of them are not getting up at all. But what I did was I pivoted and just adjusted the work. You see, because when I know what my purpose is, there is nobody on earth that can stop me from doing what God created me to do. That's to bring people together and to help organizations understand the power of fairness and equity. And so I want to share with you a tool that I've just created, and uh it's a tool that will actually restore leaders' ability to deliver fairness in the workplace. Lydia, if you'll bring up uh those slides that I have. So, so you know, uh the president has an executive order that he said ending illegal discrimination. You could almost stop there. I said, Oh, you can't defeat me with something called ending illegal discrimination. And so uh what I've done is I've created this tool, and I've thought this for a long time, that DEI in many ways was like pushing a boulder up a mountain, if you will. There were a lot of people that were often kind of resistant to it because they felt that it was being hoisted upon them. And I've always been of the mindset that we need to give managers and leaders uh more respect. And we need to not assume that they don't want to do the right thing. What if we were to assume that people do want to do the right thing? And so what I've learned is that uh over the last three and a half decades that I've been doing work, I've I've learned that there is unfairness that happens in workplaces because of people. And when women oftentimes experience inequity around pay and promotion opportunities, they they may define it as sexism. When people of color experience inequity and uh discrimination and not being able to get that key assignment because they they they they define it or describe it as racism. But when white males experience the same kind of subjective judgment, they will define it as favoritism. And so what I've seen over the years, and uh some of you that you may hear this for the first time, that literally there's a plumb line that goes through all three of those examples, and that is subjective judgment. And so, what I've done is I've done a little research here and then created this tool. You can certainly follow up with me if you're interested in this tool being able to be used in your organization. Uh it this tool helps us to battle against favoritism in the workplace. The word favoritism comes from the word favor, which means showing special approval or preference. Favoritism happens when one person or group receives better treatment than others, not because of performance, uh, fairness, or a legitimate business reason, but because of the personal preference or relationship that they may have with the decision maker. The research is clear. Research suggests that favoritism is not isolated to workplace uh problem, uh, that across this country, approximately half of the U.S. workforce experience or witness favoritism or bias towards selected employees. And so we need to understand. So I've I've I've created this tool that provides some of that research. Why this tool matters? Well, if you want to protect trust, if you want to improve on consistency, if you want to reduce the risk of bias and maybe uh leaving people out that may have the kind of answers and solutions that take your company to the whole nother level, uh, you know, then you need this tool. Uh, it supports explainable decisions. Let's go to the next slide. And so uh managers, and here's what I think is important for all of us to understand that managers are people too. And that literally it's natural for any person to build strong relationships with some employees than they do with others. That's just a human condition. And so, what I've done is put together this leadership and decision matrix. It's designed to help leaders and managers make intentional, consistent, and evidence-based decisions across key areas of employee experiences, including so this tool can be used if you're looking at promotions and advancement decisions, if you're looking at high visibility assignments, if you're looking at who should be attending training and developmental opportunities, if you're looking at how who should be recognized and receive awards, uh, if you're looking at things like schedule flexibility and exceptions to that, pay and performance recommendations, access to leaders and clients and information, if you're looking at corrective action and accountability, oftentimes you could use a tool that would help you see what you may not be able to see. Oftentimes we assume that people are just doing unfair bias, you know, just that's what they want to do. But believe it or not, sometimes it's because there's a blind spot that exists that they actually can't see what they're doing. You've noticed here, and this is what God called me to from the very outset, I actually don't need to do anything that's targeted just for women and minorities and the LGBTQ community. Look, I believe in fighting for every single person in the workplace. And I believe that when we create a workplace that's fair and inclusive, that it will benefit everybody. Let's go to the next line. And so uh, and so what I've done then is created this matrix. And so uh managers, leaders can choose any of those areas. Uh, what's the decision being made? Who are the employees being considered? What is the business need or desired outcome? And then they can complete this matrix. And there's uh there are these 12 items that they can look at, sort of a fairness check, if you will, and then they can score those uh as either zero, one, or two. So uh if the if the answer is yes to the question, uh then they can uh you know rate that a two. If the answer is partially or uncertain, then it's a one. And if the answer is no, then it's a zero. And so there's a total score of 24. So if you look at the uh the fairness checklist, uh clear criteria. Have I established clear criteria? Does everybody understand that? Uh job-related evidence. Have I collected true job-related evidence uh for all the candidates that I'm looking at? Uh can do I have consistent standards across all the people that I'm looking at? Am I being consistent in the way that I'm uh you know uh measuring their standards? Uh is there equal awareness that this opportunity exists? Is there broad consideration of all the people that potentially may have the skills, uh the requisite skills to do the job? Uh what is the relationship check? Uh would I make the same decision if I did not personally like, relate to, or feel comfortable with an employee? Uh similarity check. Am I uh favoring someone because we share similar backgrounds, interests, personalities, communication styles, or experience? Uh, you know, and they're answering a yes, no, or somewhere in between. Uh uh access check. Uh has this employee uh benefited from greater informational access to me, information, coaching, visibility, uh, than the others that uh have the skill and the experience to do that? Uh opportunity history. Uh, you know, have I uh reviewed or received, who pre have I looked at who previously received a desirable assignments, recognition, flexibility, development, and exposure? So who's been getting that historically? Uh do I have I done an independent review? Have I asked other people to weigh in on that? Uh have I heard all the employees' voices? Is my decision one that is explainable? In other words, I don't really fear sharing the criteria, the reason for uh choosing who I did. Am I okay doing that? And so this checklist, I believe it's an answer to bias and inequity and favoritism in the workplace. And it's a tool that can be used to benefit everybody. Because at the end of the day, whether you're a coach or whether you're a manager or leader, you ultimately want the best people to be serving in position. That's what we hope. So if you don't, that's on you. But what I've decided here is to create a tool that can be used. I don't need a label, uh, DEI, I don't even need it. All I need is some principles and some values and some tools that can help leaders make better decisions. Let's go to the next line. And so, in this, uh, if you know, it's a scoring system that goes along with this. If the score is between 20 and 24, proceed. You know, the decision appears supported by a fair, consistent, and evidence-based process, document the decision and communicate the relevant criteria. Uh, if the score is between 14 and 19, then pause and review. Take a look at it again, have some other people look at it. If it's uh 13 or or below, do not proceed yet. The decision carries a significant risk of actual or perceived favoritism. Clarify the criteria, expand consideration, and obtain an independent assessment. And so uh, you know, automatic pause. If there's, you know, regardless of the total score, if they have a zero on questions one, two, three, and twelve, then you automatically pause. This is ultimately the fair leadership test. Fair facts. What objective job-related evidence supports this decision? A access. Did every reasonable candidate have fair access to the opportunity, information, coaching, and consideration? I impartiality. Would I reach the same conclusion if the employee were less familiar to me, uh, less similar to me, or outside of my usual inner circle? And then finally, R can I explain the decision in a way that employees would recognize as reasonable, consistent, and fair? So let's take that down. Community, here's what I'm saying to you that no matter what happens in life, you don't have to be defeated. Right now, my business is going through a complete transformation, but God has given me the ability to be innovative and to continue to press ahead with solutions that say we are not dead. We can create things that benefit the whole world. And so I'm I'm so grateful. Lydia, you can take down the slides. I'm so grateful to be doing the work that I do right now. And the message that I wanted to deliver you on this Saturday morning is that no matter what you're going through, right now, if I I look at my life, there's just a thousand things that are happening. I've just come out of a 37-year sort of marital disillusion. And my head on many days has literally been spinning. I'm uh discouraged at times. I've shed a lot of tears. But I also believe that I am in God's master class. And it's the enemy that would like me to be on the canvas and never to get up again. But you know what I'm doing? I'm shaking it off, and I'm standing all over again, recognizing that I still have the purpose that God created in me. You see, when I was uh when I was uh in high school, I love playing basketball more than I did girls. And uh back to the same thing. I mean, I love uh golf and I love work more than I love women or anything else in terms of relationship-wise. And I'm grateful to be in God's masterclass and recognizing that the greatest need that we have in this country and this world is for people to be reconciled uh one to another, for people to respect each other, for people to even love each other and to realize that as we love each other, we work better together, we have more fun together. So that's my job. That's like my whole job. The job that God has called me to is to bring people together. So I don't have time to be defeated, I don't have time to be on the canvas for long. We can get knocked down, but we got to get back up. Uh Roger, you said sometimes you're not just part of the plan, you are the plan. Man, that's powerful. Sometimes you're not just part of the plan, you are the plan. And so on on some days, not in an arrogant way, I recognize that I have a role in this madness. And it's to love people, to not allow myself to get caught up in all of the division and the finger pointing and stuff like that. No, that's not my job. My job is to love people, to show them how to love and respect each other. And I just wanted to give this message to you this morning, no matter where you are, no matter how you feel right now, no matter how your job is going. Maybe you've lost your job, or maybe you've got a family member that is in the hospital and you don't know if they're going to survive. I'm saying to you that you are not defeated, that you can get up and you can use your faith and you can use your hope to find ways to still experience joy. While there are people out there right now that are enjoying putting out divisive messages. And I'll tell you, I'm gonna be honest with you. I don't think any of the media cares about us. Just like we've seen the damage that has been done to young people by social media and smartphones, I'm saying to you, in many of the same ways, the negativity that we're getting from news outlets on a regular basis is almost irresponsible. But you know what? That's not really my battle to fight right now. Turn the TV off. I'm saying to you that you can control those things. And what you need to allow to get inside of you is those things that make you better, stronger, and a greater asset to yourself, your family, your community, and the world that you live in. And so I really do. I thank you all for being with me uh today, uh, this Saturday morning. I'm looking forward to having Tommy uh Lewis join me again next week for another installment of Diversity Conversations. Take care.